PV : Yeah, I know.

JTW : It’s bullshit.

PV : It [mutating COVID] sounds like Gain-of-Function to me.

JTW : I don’t know, it’s a little bit different. I think it’s different. It’s like, this, it’s definitely not Gain-of-Function.

PV : It sounds like it is, I mean, it’s okay.

JTW : No no no, but directed evolution is very different.
JTW : Well you’re not supposed to do Gain-of-Function research with the viruses.
JTW : They’d rather we not, but we do these selected structure mutations to try to see if we can make them more potent.
JTW : So, there is research ongoing about that. I don’t know how that’s going to work.
JTW : There better not be any more outbreaks cause, like, Jesus Christ.

JTW : It is a revolving door for all government officials.
JTW : It’s pretty good for the industry to be honest. It’s bad for everyone else in America.

PV : Why is it bad for everyone else [in America]?

JTW : Because if the regulators, who review our drugs, you know that once they stop being a regulator, they want to go work for the company, they are not going to be as harsh on the company where they’re getting their job.

PV : What is Pfizer doing, I guess to optimise, you know, the vaccines now?

JTW : Oh, we actually had a meeting about that today. So there’s a lot.

PV : Really?

JTW : We’re doing, ugh, I don’t know if I should say this.

JTW : We’re exploring like – you know how the virus keeps mutating?
JTW : Well one of the things we’re exploring is like, why don’t we just mutate it ourselves so we could focus on – so we could create preemptively develop new vaccines, right? So we have to do that. If we’re gonna do that though, there’s a risk of like, as you could imagine, no one wants to be having a pharma company mutating fucking viruses.

PV : Yeah. Okay.

JTW : So, we’re like, do we want to do this? So that’s like one of the things we’re considering. For, like, the future, like maybe we can like, create new versions of the vaccines and things like that.

PV : Okay. So, Pfizer ultimately is thinking about mutating COVID?

JTW : Well, that is not what we say to the public. No, that’s why it was, it was a thought that came up in a meeting and we were like, why do we not — it was like, we’re going to consider that with more discussions.
JTW : That exactly, actually. We’re like, wait a minute, like, people won’t like that.
JTW : So, the way that we’re thinking about – don’t tell anyone this by the way. You have to promise you won’t tell anyone, okay?
JTW : So, the way it would work is like we put them in – the virus in these monkeys. And then we successively, like, cause them to keep infecting each other.
JTW : And we collect serial samples from them, and then, the ones that are more infectious, to like, the virus we’ll put them in another monkey and you just constantly actively mutate it. That’s one way.
JTW : Or we could even do like, directed like simulation, which like we tend not to prefer. And they just sample what the different like, proteins on the surface of the virus look like over time.
JTW : So, then you can see the mutation. You can now force it to mutate in a certain way you want it.

PV : Okay.

JTW : But you have to be like very controlled to make sure that this virus that you mutate doesn’t create something like, you know, goes everywhere.
JTW : Which, I suspect is the way that the virus started in Wuhan, to be honest. Like, it makes non sense that this virus popped out of nowhere.

PV : Yeah, I know.

JTW : It’s bullshit.

PV : So, I mean, when is Pfizer going to implement the mutation of all these viruses?

JTW : I don’t know, it depends on how the experiments work out because this is just like, something we’re trying, right?

PV : It sounds like Gain-of-Function to me.

JTW : I don’t know, it’s a little bit different. I think it’s different. It’s like, this, it’s definitely not Gain-of-Function.

PV : It sounds like it is, I mean, it’s okay.

JTW : No no no, but directed evolution is very different.

PV : Directed evolution?

JTW : Directed evolution.

PV : Directed evolution, okay. Well, so, I mean, is that what it is?

JTW : Maybe, I don’t know.

JTW : Well you’re not supposed to do Gain-of-Function research with the viruses.
JTW : They’d rather we not, but we do these selected structure mutations to try to see if we can make them more potent.
JTW : So, there is research ongoing about that. I don’t know how that’s going to work.
JTW : There better not be any more outbreaks cause, like, Jesus Christ.

PV : So, tell me more, what’s developing with the whole, you know virus mutation process?

JTW : Well, they are still kind of conducting experiments on it, but it seems like, from what I’ve heard, they’re kind of optimising it, but they’re going slow cause everyone’s very cautious, like, you know, obviously they don’t want to accelerate it too much, but I think they’re also just trying to do it as an exploratory thing because you obviously don’t want to advertise that you are figuring out future mutations.

PV : So, did that – did the whole virus mutation thing come from your executive Sarah [Wu]?

JTW : No, that came from – we have like chief scientific officers in the other divisions.

PV : What’s the goal for Pfizer doing that [COVID mutations]?

JTW : So, part of what they want to do is try to figure it out – to some extent, try to figure out like, you know how there’s all these new strains and variants that just pop up?
JTW : Why don’t we try to like, catch them before they [variants] pop up in nature and we can develop a vaccine prophylactically, before, like, new variants. So that’s why they’re thinking like, if you do it controlled in a lab, then we say this is a new epitope, and so if it comes out later on, in the public, then you already have a vaccine kind of working.

PV : Oh my God. That’s perfect. Isn’t that the best business model though?
PV : Just control nature before nature even happens itself, right?

JTW : Yeah, if it works.

PV : What do you mean if it works?

JTW : Because some of the times there are mutations that pop up that we are not prepared for like the delta and omicron and things like that, so…
JTW : Who knows? I mean, either way, it’s going to be a cash cow. COVID will probably be a cash cow for us for a while going forward. Like, obviously, like…

PV : Well I think the whole, you know, research of the viruses and mutating it [them], like, would be the ultimate cash cow.

JTW : Yeah, it’d be perfect.

JTW : It [Pfizer] is a revolving door for all government officials.

PV : Wow!

JTW : Yeah, for any industry though. So, in the pharma industry, all the government officials who, you know, review our drugs eventually, come work for pharma companies.
JTW : And the military – all the army and defence government officials eventually go work for the defence companies afterwards.

PV : How do you feel about that revolving door?

JTW : It’s pretty good for the industry to be honest. It’s bad for everyone else in America.

PV : Why is it bad for everyone else [in America]?

JTW : Because if the regulators, who review our drugs, you know that once they stop being a regulator, they want to go work for the company, they are not going to be as harsh on the company where they’re getting their job.